Fruits Basket 2019: Shigure Sohma (ESTP)
“Not many people know what’s going on inside his head. He’s a mystery to most everyone but Hatori. You know, it’s funny. Somebody said, ‘He’s like a ripple on the water. A wave that approaches then recedes. It tickles your feet, but when you reach down to touch it, it leaves. He’s the kind of man you can never quite catch.’ I always thought that analogy was too pretty. If you ask me, he’s the jellyfish waiting to sting you.” – Yuki
Se:
“One of these days, you’ll learn to have fun. I’m sure of it.”
“Que sera sera.”
“If thinking about something makes you anxious, then you’re better off not thinking about it. …Not making sense? Okay. Let’s try something else. Picture this: you’re surrounded by a mountain of laundry so immense you can’t see over the top of it. And what’s worse, you have no washing machine, so you’ll have to do it all by hand. Obviously, you’re overwhelmed. You look around you and the doubts start flooding in. Will you be able to clean it all? How long will it take? Can you do it well enough? And the more you think the more anxious you get. Time ticks by, but you feel paralyzed. So what do you do now, Tohru? If you ask me, your best bet is to start by washing the laundry that’s at your feet. It’s important to think about what’s ahead, but if you focus on that too much, you’ll trip over what’s right in front of you. Keep washing, one piece of laundry at a time, and before you know it, there you’ll be.”
“Go ahead. Catch me if you can.”
Shigure from Fruits Basket gives off that casual and laid back vibe that we associate with perceivers. Prior to Tohru moving in, he and Yuki are content to live in chaos. They won’t cook, the kitchen is a disaster zone, and they’re constantly going out to eat. When Shigure does cook, he puts pickled radishes in everything, much to Yuki’s dismay. During a later scene in the show, Shigure’s room is briefly shown, and it, like the earlier kitchen, is also a disaster zone. In addition, Shigure handles the chaotic tendencies of the other Sohma’s quite well, all things considered. While he puts in mild protests while they are destroying his house, he typically doesn’t do anything to prevent their clashes, and simply withdraws money from their bank accounts to cover the damages.
Shigure has a generally action oriented nature. He enjoys running around and playing games with his editor, much to her dismay. You can see his “catch me if you can” mentality surface clearly. He literally will disappear and, for instance, go on vacation or claim to have run out to a restaurant, or etc. Shigure is also very impulsive. Shigure talks about having gone to the pleasure district as a young freshman in high school. In addition, he is living outside of the main Sohma estate due to an incident where he sleeps with Akito’s mother simply to spite her. Of course, the way his sensory desires surface can also be attributed to Se, especially if you compare him to Ayame (an Ne dominant) who has a similar perverted nature.
Ti:
“Maybe you should give a crap once in a while.” – Haru
“Sensei, that’s a nasty habit of yours. You can’t see a wound without rubbing salt in it.” – Haru
“What’s wrong? Are you scared of what might happen if you actually got to know him?”
“You say that, but from me, ‘kindness’ is nothing more than a hastily manufactured afterthought. Your version’s the real deal to which mine can’t hope to compare. I should probably find that sad. For some reason, I never have.”
Shigure is very calm and collected. You can rarely tell what he’s thinking, and most certainly can’t tell what he’s feeling. Shigure doesn’t tend to take control of his physical environment, like a Te user would. He lets people do what they’re going to do, for the most part, and just deals with any resulting mess later. When he does step in to make something happen, Shigure just does it without checking with anyone first. For instance, he tricked Kyo into enrolling in Tohru’s high school and just dealt with Kyo’s anger later. He also has a tendency to deflect when he answers questions, rather than answering them directly or absolutely. For example, he never outright tells Kagura that she can’t live with them. Rather, he says “You know you can’t, so why ask?”
Shigure is highly sarcastic. Nearly everything he says has a subtle sarcastic undertone, which gets on Kyo’s and Yuki’s nerves constantly. He also has a tendency to be more callous, which Haru calls out quite a few times. In his dealings with Kyo and Yuki, you can see his harsh logic surfaces when he pokes at others. For instance, he takes a jab at Yuki over being ashamed about his silent period, and he also aims a crack at Kyo about being afraid to get to know Yuki. Shigure is ultimately not very concerned with the feelings of others, and is attempting to manipulate those around him for his own advantage.
Fe:
“If I have to lie or manipulate a few people along the way, then so be it. It’s a small price to pay even if someone gets hurt. I do feel bad about it sometimes though.”
“It’s actually pretty rude you know, calling her suffering amazing.”
Shigure possesses classic mischievous Fe. He enjoys manipulating people, and essentially makes a hobby out of messing with them. You see this over and over again with his editor, when he freaks her out by pretending to not have met his deadline or runs off right when it would distress her the most. He also thoroughly enjoyed manipulating Kyo into applying for Tohru’s school, tricking Ritsu into fending off his editor, and etc. In addition, upon first running into Tohru in her tent, Shigure reacted instantly by pointing and laughing hysterically. He made absolutely no attempts to hide it. (This would be an unlikely reaction for a high Fe, an inferior Fe, or a tertiary Fi.)
However, Shigure’s Fe does come out in a positive way. For starters, he is a generally helpful person, having taken in Tohru, Kyo, and Yuki. He’s very personable, and good with pleasantries. He’ll give words of affirmation, and occasional advice. He’s socially confident, and goes along easily with Ayame’s dramatic games. He flirts, and teases. In addition, while he tends to create his own degree of conflict, he responds somewhat dramatically when other people threaten to create conflict for him. For instance, when Yuki and Kyo talk about not going to the New Years celebration. However, he does end up feeling bad and manipulating them into going back to spend it with Tohru. You see other instances where Shigure does something kind and hides it, like when he takes Hatori and the others on vacation to take Hatori’s mind off of the wedding. He plays it off like he’s doing this to mess with his editor, which is a classic indication that he is ultimately a Thinker, hiding his kind act behind something less emotional or more callous.
Ni:
Shigure’s Ni comes out in a few ways. The most notable thing people will see from the show is the way that he and Akito are playing a sort of back and forth game with each other, using other people as pawns to further whatever ulterior motives they have. However, Shigure appears to be using people more out of convenience and less from a highly planned out strategy. He tends to just go with what is available to him and not plan things out too far in advance. This points to a relatively low use of Ni.
Another instance of his Ni is the way that he can cut to the heart of some of his cousin’s insecurities. He on occasion will make jabs at both Yuki and Kyo for their actions leaving them flustered. He also fools Kyo into taking the school entrance exam so he could go to the same school as Yuki and Tohru. These are examples of his Fe and Ni at play, working together seamlessly.
Shigure also compliments Tohru for a simple analogy she made about the kitchen mess in his house. He basically compliments her for a simplistic use of Ni. Having a trait low can lead to admiration or pride when seeing it being used by yourself or others which is what we see Shigure doing at that moment.
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…ESTP… ESTP?!
I’m sorry but you’re way off, this is actually one of the most off typings of Shigure I’ve ever come across. (Well at least you didn’t type him as some sort of SJ, that would’ve been even worse lol)
I’m sorry but Shigure is NOT a Se dom, how you got Se from him I honestly can’t comprehend but he’s very much an Intuitive, one of the more obvious examples. All the things you listed aren’t an example of Se at all. I was sure more than any other letter you would get N down for him at least.
Well this was an interesting interpretation to read nonetheless just for how different it was despite being way off. Let me guess you didn’t end up finishing the manga like I suggested you do did you? (Honest question, I cannot comprehend how anyone could walk away with the notion of Shigure as a Se-dom and an ESTP yet after reading the manga in full!)
While I don’t normally like to stoop this low, the rude nature of your comment has prompted me to respond in kind.
I honestly don’t get how you don’t see him as an ESTP. Perhaps you are going to point to all of the other poorly written and scattered opinions calling him anything from an ENFJ to an ENTP to an ENTJ. All of them contradict each other, so clearly everyone calling him an intuitive can’t even get on the same page, which is simply because none of them are right. He can’t be an ENFJ, even though all the functions are right, because he is obviously a high Ti user. Sure, his use of Fe is there but it’s used in a very self serving way. He even declares that he doesn’t mind using people or that other people get hurt, as long as he gets what he wants. All the other characters in the manga make those same comments about him as well. He can’t be an ENTJ because he has absolutely no semblance of Te whatsoever. He is clearly not an ENTP because he doesn’t utilize Ne at all. He has an obvious preference toward Ti logic. You can see it every time he opens his mouth. So, the closest you could get to being right while still calling him an intuitive would be an ENTP. However, he has a very linear nature because he is using Ni. It’s so painfully obvious. So what’s left? The STPs.
Of course, he can’t be a stupid sensor. Clearly he is much too smart, complex, and strategic… which is a load of crap. STPs can be every bit as strategic, complex, and cunning as any intuitive out there, to think otherwise is both biased and absurd. You need to pay more attention to his actions, how he presents himself, and his reasoning. Just because he has Ni low in his stack doesn’t mean he can’t use it. It just means he won’t rely on it heavily, which as you can see all throughout the manga; it’s obvious he doesn’t. He uses his Ni in a very opportunistic way: his dominant Se seizing opportunities. He doesn’t search out for Tohru to use her. He happens across her and figures he can use what has been dropped into his lap to his advantage. He doesn’t sit and think out consequences like a higher Ni user would. He just shrugs his shoulders and figures everything will work itself out.
The fact that you are generally referring to him as an intuitive shows your lack of understanding of the theory. There is a world of difference between a Ni intuitive and a Ne intuitive. So, to say he is a general obvious example of an intuitive is very flawed.
When it comes to Ne, he doesn’t word vomit or twist people’s words back on them. He’s deflective, not argumentative, and his opinions or jabs are much more pointed. He pulls one specific insecurity instead of blasting a bunch of insults. (Ni > Ne) He doesn’t come up with fantastical scenarios or stories like Ayame. Ne users have a need to speak and extrovert their thoughts and ideas to anyone and everyone around them. Shigure is certainly not like that.
So, in conclusion, from start to finish Shigure displayed characteristic attributes of an STP. If you have another opinion, you’re welcome to it, but our opinion certainly isn’t due to a lack of information or under-analysis.
First off I want to apologize if I came off as rude there. I wasn’t trying to insult you and I wasn’t mad or anything, I truly do appreciate the time you took out to research and type him as per my request, I just tend to be very blunt in my opinions (I have autism) and I love a good debate so, lol. ^^;
Now with regards to my argument, my thinking Shigure isn’t a sensor wasn’t meant to be any kind of Intuitive bias or Sensor bashing, I don’t think he’s a sensor because I think he’s too “intelligent” or some crap like that. Rather all the traits YOU took as some sort of proof of him having Se isn’t indicative of Se at all.
You say Shigure has an “action oriented attitude” due to him liking to run around and play pranks on his editor. I’m sorry but how is this indicative of “action oriented?” Where does this use Se? All this shows is that he’s lazy and likes to mess with people, he never does any “Se-like” things in messing with his editor. Compare and contrast with heavy Se users in the series like Kyo or Haru, does Shigure play any sports? Does he practice martial arts? No and No. In fact him being messy and not good at practical stuff such as cooking is more proof of an ABSENSE of Se rather than the presence of it.
And you can’t judge his having Se based on his sexual past for quite a few reasons. 1. We don’t know have any idea what exactly he meant by that little comment he made about the Red Light District, it was meant to be a comedic moment to shock the viewer and he frequently puts up many masks in order to get people off his trail so who’s to say he was even telling the truth in that moment or wasn’t joking? And as for Ren if you read the manga in full you’d know that he didn’t sleep with her for any Se – like purposes or desires but strictly as a form of revenge against Akito. So again, can’t be used as proof of Se. In fact I would be inclined to say that out of all the functions, Se is Shigure’s weakest. Practically the only instance I can think of where he displays some Se would be during the morning after the dream he has of Akito where he vows that he “wants to hold it in a physical form” but that hardly implies Se-dom, rather it suggests his Se being inferior, i.e. an INXJ since he needs something/someone to exist materially but has no use for Se otherwise. Even with the way he reacts to the dream of Akito is very Intuitive like, I doubt a Sensor would attach themselves so readily to something so fantastical, they’d at least exhibit a certain degree of skepticism at first.
For what it’s worth, I do agree with you that Shigure would be Ni over Ne if he’s an Intuitive. I also don’t agree with the more common typings of him like ENTP or ENFJ, I particularly disagreed with your ESTP typing for him not only because I don’t think he’s a sensor (and certainly not a Se-dom) but also because I don’t think he’s an extrovert in general either. He puts on an extrovert MASK throughout the course of the manga I agree, but just like all his other facades that’s all it is. A mask. Read between the lines and really look at him more closely in his quieter moments. He’s frequently seen with his nose in the books in always alone, Akito says on him towards the end of the manga that he always seemed to be “fine being alone.” He only has two (2) close friends, and he frequently introspects and internalizes his feelings. Go back and read his inner monologue in chapter 111 please!
He definitely seems like a Ni-Fe dom, my possible typings for him is some kind of INXJ or an INTP. I’m surprised you didn’t even stop to consider those 3 since I think they’re the most likely candidates. INFJ is the most likely just cause of it’s Ni-Fe dominance.
“You say Shigure has an “action oriented attitude” due to him liking to run around and play pranks on his editor. I’m sorry but how is this indicative of “action oriented?” Where does this use Se? All this shows is that he’s lazy and likes to mess with people, he never does any “Se-like” things in messing with his editor. Compare and contrast with heavy Se users in the series like Kyo or Haru, does Shigure play any sports? Does he practice martial arts? No and No. In fact him being messy and not good at practical stuff such as cooking is more proof of an ABSENSE of Se rather than the presence of it.”
You’re mistaken in thinking that doing things like playing sports or doing martial arts means you have Se. That is a flat out stereotype. Se is taking in sensory information in real time and reacting to it. Much like he does when he sees Kagura barreling toward his house and Kyo so he quickly grabs Kyo and tosses him out of the house to save it from damage. That is an actual example of Se. He is being reactive. Sleeping with Akito’s mother to spite her was an Se way to react. It doesn’t matter that he wasn’t in it for the pleasure. He was being reactive. Taking in Tohru on a whim was Se. He was reacting to his current environment. His flirtatious nature. Se reactive. Being messy has nothing to do with Se one way or the other. It shows he is a P and not a J as Js will want order and Ps are more laid back. There is no way Shigure could be ok with the constant chaos happening in his house between Kyo and Yuki and be a J. An inferior Se especially would struggle with that level of chaos, which makes the IXTJs incredibly unlikely.
I read chapter 111 again. I don’t think I saw any inner monologue? I see where he is speaking to Akito and where he is speaking with Hatori. Both cases point to high Ti and a low feeling function. He is sitting there saying time passes as do people and feelings. I wouldn’t expect a feeler to think something like that. For that whole chapter, you generally see comments made about him being a cold person. He has no desire to be a kind person. He flirts by being mean. Throughout the series, you see that he revels in his… antagonistic nature, essentially. Fe users want love and admiration. Shigure doesn’t really care to win people over to his side, except when he wants to use them, and even then, he is still commonly known for being cold, distant, and even a bit cruel. He doesn’t try to mask that part of his nature, whereas a high Fe user would. All of this points to a low feeling function. High Fe users want harmony. Shigure rubs salt in people’s wounds.
And just to let you know. We always start out considering all 16 types. I initially gut typed him as an INTJ then moved to INFJ then to ENFJ and as I gathered more evidence settled on an ESTP.
2/2 Ni – The whole plot of the manga is put into motion solely from Shigure’s vision of an ideal future with the curse broken and him attaining Akito for his own. Plus he’s almost psychic like, he frequently gets hunches such as his talk with Rin in volume 18 telling her how he knew that the curse was going to be breaking soon and he was also the only Zodiac able to figure out Kureno’s curse broke, that’s Ni dom right there!
Fe – Shigure uses his high Fe skills to put his Ni vision into action, he has astute emotional intelligence which he uses to manipulate to his advantage. At age 7 or 8 he was the only one of the 4 boys who was able to discern Ren’s true feelings towards Akito as well as being able to figure out Mayu’s feelings for Hatori when they had only just met!
Ti – I think this one is pretty obvious as you’ve already outlined.
Se – Se would definitely be his inferior function, he’s not good at and uncomfortable dealing with “Se-like activities” but does still need it in some capacity like an INXJ would. (after the dream he has of Akito where he falls in love with her, immediately after he states how he needs that dream to be “in a physical form”) When he’s stressed or in a jealousy grip he behaves like an unhealthy and callous ESTP (The INFJ’s shadow) and indulges in Se in order to hurt, such as sleeping with Ren in order to get back at Akito sleeping with Kureno. On the whole though I would argue that Shigure’s whole main conflict in the manga is like the typical INFJ’s problem, finding life meaningless (please go back and re-read chapter 111 for this!) needing/wanting a deeper meaning/purpose in life (which is why he’s the only Zodiac to attach himself to the dream of Akito so readily) thus forgetting to just live in the moment and enjoy their life in the here and now, i.e. their discomfort with Se.
Also INFJ’s tend to be stereotyped as yanderes and are extreme in everything they do, does that not sound like Shigure’s obsession with Akito?
The mangaka also had this to say about Shigure in an interview: “He lives his life manufacturing a self” Don’t INFJ’s have particular problems with that?
In conclusion, I’m now like 95% positive that Shigure is an INFJ. Any thoughts on this?
1/2 >”It shows he is a P and not a J as Js will want order and Ps are more laid back. There is no way Shigure could be ok with the constant chaos happening in his house between Kyo and Yuki and be a J. An inferior Se especially would struggle with that level of chaos, which makes the IXTJs incredibly unlikely.”
Isn’t that just going according to letter typing rather than functions? When typing strictly via functions P vs J doesn’t automatically denote a level of organization, that’s just stereotyping as well.
>”I read chapter 111 again. I don’t think I saw any inner monologue? I see where he is speaking to Akito and where he is speaking with Hatori. Both cases point to high Ti and a low feeling function. He is sitting there saying time passes as do people and feelings. I wouldn’t expect a feeler to think something like that. For that whole chapter, you generally see comments made about him being a cold person. He has no desire to be a kind person. He flirts by being mean. Throughout the series, you see that he revels in his… antagonistic nature, essentially. Fe users want love and admiration. Shigure doesn’t really care to win people over to his side, except when he wants to use them, and even then, he is still commonly known for being cold, distant, and even a bit cruel. He doesn’t try to mask that part of his nature, whereas a high Fe user would. All of this points to a low feeling function. High Fe users want harmony. Shigure rubs salt in people’s wounds.”
Don’t read just the beginning part, the part I’m talking about that I want you to pay attention comes in the middle of the chapter during Shigure’s chat with Hatori where he laments to himself how he’s always been different from the rest of the Zodiac as he never felt the curse was a burden or even wanted normal, human things like his parents love then reflects on his apathy as a lonely/sad thing and wonders if it would’ve been better if he dreamt of Tohru instead. Also High Fe users are also known for being highly manipulative and shrewd regarding other’s emotions, which Shigure is, The whole caring about harmony/group is more a Dom Fe/EXFJ thing. Shigure could absolutely not ultimately care about Fe/the group while still having it as an aux function like INFJ has.
After further delibarating and reviewing the function stack order of each type, I’ve come to the conclusion that Shigure is probably an INFJ, I can now see how you got ESTP for him since they both use the same functions only in opposite order (since ESTP is INFJ’s shadow). And Shigure is quite unhealthy for pretty much the entire series and is likely tapping into his ESTP subconscious which is why he comes off as very EXTP on the surface. Let me break this down function by function to show why he’s an INFJ:
Hey, I’m just going to fill in for Ryan really quick because he’s been pretty busy this past week. I believe we’re at an agree to disagree point here, so I’m just going to list off a few final comments. This’ll be our last response.
-The P vs J comment was not in reference to physical organization, but rather a constant state of chaos, like Kyo and Yuki fighting. Both inferior Se or Ne will struggle with a constant lack of calm (IE: a constant state of chaos), so generalizing P vs J is applicable in this scenario.
-Both dom and aux Fe users care about harmony in the group. Standard IXFJs are generally passive aggressive and conflict avoidant. I have several in my life, both INFJ and ISFJ. I’m not saying that INFJs can’t be conniving and manipulative; they certainly can. However, they’re going to want to make themselves appear to be the “good guy” because they want that Fe validation versus Shigure who openly revels in his more cruel nature. (Ti > Fe) I’ve already pointed out several instances where his actions don’t fall in line with high Fe, like rubbing salt in wounds and flirting by being mean.
-Chapter 111 is very anti-INFJ. We’re not sure how you concluded otherwise. He is taking a very anti-Fe stance (proof of low Fe). He talks about how he is not a nice person and never will be, how any kindness he has is fake, not allowing himself to get moved… etc. He very actively pushes down and suppresses any good emotion he potentially was going to feel in that moment. This all falls very much in line with ESTP behavior.
-A INFJ in a longterm grip or shadow scenario is not plausible, as types in the grip are visibly self-destructive or unstable. Shigure never appears that unhealthy, and effortlessly maintains the persona of a healthy ESTP. If Shigure’s persona as a whole is one of an EXTP, then that’s what he is. Big picture is more important here than small moments of anomalies.
-While you say that Shigure put the whole plot in motion, did he actually enact any longterm strategies that weren’t just opportunities of convenience? For instance, Tohru fell in his lap – he didn’t go looking for her. He saw an opportunity to take her in and use her. That’s opportunistic (Se) vs planned strategy (Ni), which suggests Se > Ni. Sure, Ni allowed him to recognize how an opportunity could be used to his advantage in the long run, but that’s plausible for low Ni as well. He doesn’t appear to have any pre-thought big picture strategies. If his approach is opportunistic as a whole, that is evidence of ESTP > INFJ.
-I also seem to remember Shigure saying that the curse was dissolving on it’s own, which he noticed because all of the zodiacs were finally going to be in one place again. Did he really do a whole lot to break the curse beyond throwing a couple of opportunistic monkey wrenches into it?
-Low Ni can have moments of insight or fixate on a specific desire as well. However, Shigure is also fiction, and fictional characters tend to be blown out of proportion for the sake of entertainment. As mentioned earlier, he has the overall persona of an ESTP, not an INFJ (unhealthy or otherwise).
-Tertiary Fe can be exceptionally good at being fake as well. They have good enough use of their Fe to be very manipulative when they want to be.
Our final opinion is that there are too many inconsistencies for Shigure to be an INFJ. Could a unique INFJ possess a few exceptions? Certainly, but Shigure’s entire being cannot be an exception to the rule. If anything, it makes more sense that he is an ESTP possessing a few INFJ qualities, versus an INFJ who scarcely resembles his own type.
Alright if you say he’s an ESTP then we’ll just agree to disagree ^^ I’d still like to continue this conversation further because I love in-depth discussions/analyzations like this. Please don’t be the last response, just reply whenever you feel like it I’m in no rush lol or email me at cweiser@usc.edu if you wanna continue there.
I will say this though: I just can’t believe an ESTP would ever attach themselves to something so fantastical and romantic as that dream of Akito like Shigure did and automatically declare it to be true love and his life’s meaning. Sensors, but ESTPs especially are much too practical to EVER go that far, that reads like a typical N fantasy. Compare and contrast Shigure with what I consider the quintessential ESTP in fiction, Gaston from BATB. Gaston wanted Belle too but did he want her for any deeper, symbolic or fantastical reason outside extremely superficial ones like her being the “prettiest girl in town” and a “worthy status symbol?” Did he ever once describe what he felt for Belle as “love” like Shigure does for Akito? No, like a typical ESTP he was down to earth, materialistic and only wanted her for “sensible” reasons such as being the perfect Trophy Wife. An ESTP or Se-Dom would not assign such a deep, almost spiritual meaning like Shigure assigns the dream of Akito. (Also compare and contrast his reaction to the dream compared to Hatori’s and Ayame’s, who barely cared for it and didn’t automatically jump to the conclusion that it’s “love”)
If you truly believe he’s an ESTP, then do you think it’s possible his incredibly atypical motivations for an ESTP is due to his Enneagram? I don’t know how much you know about the Enneagram but if you know it as well as MBTI types what would assign his type to be? Both main and tritype?
Tbh the only Sensor type I ever gave consideration for Shigure’s type (cause I was almost absolutely certain he was a Intuitive) was ISTP, might that be a better alternative if you’re set on him being a sensor? ISTPs are generally more introspective which would fit Shigure better, Shigure definitely has incredibly high Ti so I could see him being a Ti Dom, his Ni is also nothing to slouch at so I could see it as his aux or tert if it’s not Dom. I really, really don’t think he’s Se Dom (he’s not impulsive/hotheaded enough anyways) but I could see Se being fairly high from how you described so maybe it could be his aux function?
The only thing that doesn’t quite fit is his Fe being inferior. Would he still be able to be as manipulative of other people’s emotions and be able to read them as well as he does with Fe in the inferior?